In this episode of Advice Architects, we go deep with Jason Pereira, as he paints a picture of the future of financial planning without mentioning artificial intelligence (AI). What does financial planning really mean? To Jason, it's much more than dollars and cents—it's about the intersection of life aspirations, comprehensive understanding, and the art of human connection. While technology has its merits, the true value of a financial planner goes beyond algorithms. From being life coaches to navigating the emotional terrains often overlooked by software, join us as Jason shares his vision of an industry where the balance between tech and touch defines success. If you've ever wondered about the human side of financial strategy, this episode is for you.

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For more information about Jason Pereira, follow him on Twitter/X or LinkedIn, or visit jasonpereira.ca.

For more information on Responsive AI’s solutions for advice providers, please contact us.

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Day Wachell:

Welcome to this week's Advice Architects episode titled, The Future of Financial Planning Without Mentioning AI. This is Dave from Responsive, and today we are speaking with Jason Ferreira, award-winning financial planner, portfolio manager, entrepreneur, lecturer, fintech expert and advisor, writer, TV host, and podcaster.

I'm very lucky to have been able to parlay with Jason over the years about FinTech and wealth management and of course their discontents every time I get great insights and maybe just one or two salty hot takes. Jason, welcome aboard.

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Jason Pereira:

My pleasure, I feel like you need to give me a word to use other than AI, but sure, okay. Well, we can do this, I'm framed for it now.

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Day:

You're strong. You can do the challenge. At the top of the show, we kind of do like a prose questionnaire, the advice architects questionnaire to learn a little bit about you and get warmed up. So what's your job title and what do you actually do?

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Jason:

Which job? So no, my core job, my core.

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Day:

Ha ha ha!

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Jason:

But the big thing I do is look, I'm a senior partner and a financial planner, Wage Financial, which is a comprehensive financial planning firm in Canada that caters to about 230 households and basically does very deep dive financial planning and kind of family office for kind of the one to $20 million range. Okay. So that's at its core what I do. And I particularly work on a lot of complex cases around cross border and people with corporations. So I deal, you know, complexity in that regard is typically the member wheelhouse.

So, that’s the day job. Then, you know, besides the other stuff, I'm on, I'm the president of the Financial Planning Association of Canada. I am director of the Institute of Advanced Financial Planners and director of the Individual Finance and Insurance Decision Center, as well as basically all the various media and whatnot I put out there. So as in various other volunteer positions.

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Day:

So you know a little bit about financial planning is what you're trying to tell the audience. How long have you been doing it?

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Jason:

I've been in the industry since I was 17 years old. I've been licensed as an advisor since I was, since 2022. So yeah, I've spent the majority of my life worrying about other people's money.

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Day:

When and where were you happiest related to FinTech or WealthTech?

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Jason:

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When and where was I happiest related to FinTech? That's an interesting question. I mean, I think the honest truth is that that's a moving target and it's currently now and hopefully tomorrow because every day I get to use better, more emerging technologies that I get to play around with, discover and make myself more efficient and deliver more value to my clients with it.

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Day:

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Awesome. The future is bright. Why do you care about WealthTech?

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Jason:

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Well, here's the thing. At its core, the job is about servicing others. And there are two, there's basically, we'll take a step back and talk about how the engineers and executives look at my job, okay? They look at it as a math equation. They think that if they can make, reduce my time doing other stuff, I'm gonna fill that time with more clients. Problem is that doesn't work. It doesn't work because, a) there's only so many relationships my mind can hold together. Everybody's mind. There's a concept called the Dunbar number that says that you can basically keep track of about 150 relationships before they all start breaking down your mind. And no one wants an experience with a financial planner where the financial planner has to take five minutes to read the CRM notes to understand who they were. They want to pick up the phone and know that you know that their kid had a broken leg last month and then ask how that was. So, so there's a limitation there on human interaction that will always be a bottleneck.

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The second piece comes down to, comprehensive planning takes a lot of time to do, right? So the reality is, is that can become more efficient. Absolutely, right? That's where the tech, the WealthTech comes into play, as well as creating a conduit for me to demonstrate that value and communicate with people. Think the misnomer here is, again, the executives and engineers tend to think of it, well, if I reduce the burden of that, I increase the number of people and therefore, you know, the ratio, that's not gonna happen. What's happened instead, and we've seen the US for years with their WealthTech revolutions, is that the depth of service has gotten much deeper with individual clients and the amount of value being provided in different ways is increasing. That is so at its core, what matters to me is getting the heavy lifting out of the way.

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Yeah, so it's about getting the heavy lifting out of the way so I can focus more on value delivery.

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Day:

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You care about delivering real value and personalization to your clients. Yeah.

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Jason:

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Absolutely, because at the end of the day, the core of the job is about giving people the best version of their lives, right? So if I want to help them self actualize the best version of their lives, their retirement, their kids going through school, whatever they want to see their lives as, right? I'm a conduit for making that happen. And the more I can get the heavy lifting out of the way, the more I can help enable that.

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Day:

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Awesome. Okay, so we put you in the hot seat. I've surprised you with a terrible and wonderful challenge, the not mentioning AI challenge episode, impossible, but I still wanna talk about the future of financial planning. So to do this, we're gonna focus on problem solving and first principles. And I want you in a way to try and answer as simply and as clearly as possible.

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But before we start, do you promise not to mention AI?

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Jason:

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Do I get an electric shock if I do? Or is there a giant gong that gets hit if I do? I promise to do my very best, how about that?

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Day:

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I think J. Siracusa has put a button, I think has a button that connects to your microphone, so watch out. Okay, so fundamentally, at the level of problem solving, and like without getting into the process details, what is financial planning? What is the problem at a high level that you solve?

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Jason:

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So the difference between consumers, what they think it is and where the industry is seeing it going and understanding. And

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The difference is the consumers, they typically go looking for financial services to basically, in most cases, invest their money and be better off, right? Like that's the common thing, or some other product. When comprehensive planning, and those of us in that space understand that no, it's about taking every aspect of your life, understanding what you have, what you owe, what's coming to you, where it's going to, and what is it you just want to do with your life, and helping enable that through all the product solutions, through all the investing, through all the behavioral stuff that we need to do. So that's really the highest level of value we can provide people is helping enable that life, right? So basically the industry though, is still largely mired in the old product sales distribution channels. But the good news is that the trends are moving towards what I described. And when consumers experience that, they never wanna go back to the old product model in most cases. So at its core, it is first and foremost about giving them what they want. But then the question is how do we do that, right? And basically that requires first and foremost, a depth of knowledge across basically how to solve all these problems, right? Across multiple specializations, across investment insurance, tax, estate planning, you name it, across all these different areas. And being able to harmonize that into a unified vision that basically is actionable and that is digestible from a behavioral standpoint for the consumer, right? Because if I can give them the best advice in the world, it's not gonna follow, it's pointless, right? If unless I adapt that advice around who they are as a person and their life experiences and their biases and their inhibitions, then I'm not going to get them anywhere. Right? 

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And then the last piece of it is not just the knowledge, but the heavy lifting involved in doing that work. Right? That's the challenge. So in reality, if you look at that kind of value delivery of the end state, the work done and the knowledge required, the knowledge required is not going to change with any kind of technological innovation, right? Other than maybe the technological innovation points us in the right direction to some degree, a little bit better.

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The, and especially the part about how we, how we basically map the bridge between the technical optimization and the human behavioral finance and therapy aspects of their other side. That's never going to be broken by technology. That's something that we're going to basically need to be the stewards of. In fact, that's the direction we should all be heading. That's the direction where I think the U.S. has been heading faster than anyone else. The point of the heavy lifting of all doing all that work, whether it's producing a financial plan or a proposal, or doing research on their tax returns and all of that, that is where various forms of technology, not just the forbidden word, is going to basically reduce the amount of heavy lifting I do there to focus more on how do I actually make them do what they need to do while respecting the way the person that they are and making that this theoretically optimal model come as close to the reality as possible.

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Day:

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So financial planners, really an expert in the most elevated form. They're an expert in multiple categories and they're an expert in also integrating these different disciplines versus the story they have about a person's life. To kind of tease out that value, what's the risk of a person takes when they don't work with a financial planner or they work with maybe not a great financial planner?

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Jason:

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Well, let's deal with dealing with no one. It's the old unknown unknowns issue, right? At the end of the day, these people don't even know what they could be doing wrong.

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And what I find a lot with the DIY community, and I've met DIYers who've done a reasonably good job and other ones who don't, is that they typically try to limit the scope of what they're doing to their level of understanding and actually just to stay comfortable. So a lot of things will get ignored and be suboptimal because essentially they just don't want to deal with the cognitive burden of understanding it, but they also just will not engage someone. As an example, I once met a prospect who had never funded a registered account ever, whatever. He's like, I just forget it's always better after tax. And this guy was making immense money, like in his job. And he was paying enormous amounts of, and that was going to drop off a cliff when he retired. And he was also at the same time, like had a very large portfolio. There was a huge tax deferral benefit. And when I explained to him just like the tax savings from a contribution to an RSP, he's like, wait a minute, you're telling me if I use all that today, I would pay like a hundred thousand dollars less in tax. Like his, he, he had limited his scope of understanding to what he was comfortable with and never went beyond that. And we never ended up working together because at the end of the day, he just was not willing to let go of those reins. He would rather keep the world small. But the reality is when you think of a good financial planner is someone that uncovers the traps that you didn't even know existed. The things that you did, a number of times where I've had clients, well, I did this, I'm like, okay, burn that document, because you don't understand what you just did to yourself, and, you know, explain all of this. So that is a danger, okay? Dealing with a bad financial planner. So let's go on, let's me differentiate between bad financial planner and bad advisor altogether, right? So, if you're dealing with someone whose primary job is to sell you something and basically just, or thinks it's their job to play with your money, you're dealing with the wrong person, okay? The reality is, unless the conversation is focused around you,your life goals and ambitions and how to facilitate that, you're already dealing with the wrong person. Now, maybe you don't want a financial plan engagement. Maybe you want someone who thinks they can beat the market and to cost pick stocks or have that kind of relationship experience. Fine, you go do that, right? But the reality is that if you're dealing with that next level up, which is the salesperson or the product specialist, then you got your own issues there because you're not aligning your actions with your vision. 

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And then, as for dealing with bad financial planners. Look, there's bad. There's bad, good and bad in every industry, right? You know, it's harder, I think it's harder to detect some of those. I think when you start seeing, if these are people who are putting their own biases in front of your goals, then you have to ask yourself, then you're possibly, you're probably exposing yourself to things that are not good. I mean, unfortunately, I've seen everything. I've seen financial planners decide to put everybody's money in crypto, right? And, you know, it didn't work out so well at certain points.

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Day:

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Okay, so we've done the high level of the problem solved, what the expert does. Now let's get into like the core processes. What are the building blocks of financial planning? And don't talk about technology or improvements yet. Just talk about what are the kind of the core disciplines here that need to be mastered to do this work.

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Jason:

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I mean, besides the knowledge base, and by the way, I'm going to say like the it's not that they're an expert in all fields. They know enough about all fields to know when to bring the expert in because they've hit the thing that requires the expert. But there's a generalized knowledge across all these all these fields with usually at least what specialized knowledge in one area. But really where the strength should be is in harmonization of all this, right? It's how all these things, it's being the air traffic controller of all these varying different conflicting things. So and then optimizing around that.

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The first thing that happens of course is basically discovery, right? We have to collect a ton of information on clients. Everything from where they're, again, from pay stubs as to where the money is going to, tax returns, understanding for where the money is going to, and then statements of everything including wills, powers of attorney, corporate structures, you name it, right? So there's a large data gathering exercise that happens initially. Then of course, there's a processing one, right? Where I have to basically take that all in, process it, organize it, and organize it. So the organization is another part of that.

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Then there is the modeling and actual modeling and solving. So how do I basically put all this into a model, solve for optimizing the model and basically result in recommendations that then can be enacted. And then the last piece is really the making sure the implementation happens, which I always say a financial plan without implementation is as good as toilet paper because it accomplishes nothing in the end. And frankly, so that last piece is where the rubber hits the road, is making sure that happens. And then, of course, repeating the process over and over again. And that process is going to touch upon all the areas that I mentioned, the standard areas, investment insurance, tax estate planning, cash flow planning, stuff like that.

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Day:

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Okay, awesome. So let's talk about software a little bit, and you can index into each one of these discipline areas if you want. Start with talking about how software can help, and then maybe talk about how software doesn't help or can get in the way, yeah.

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Jason:

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Sure, absolutely. So the worst software can help at all these different areas. There's lots of ways, right? Unfortunately, in the current state of affairs in Canada, it's nowhere near that perfect. And in the US, it's better, but they still complain about it, but it is what it is. No one's ever fully happy. But, data gathering, right? Data gathering, everything from online questionnaires, where you're collecting the information in one place that can be exported to other systems and basically standardize the data you're taking into data extraction tools. 

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So aggregators of aggregators of banking information and whatnot, to get transaction information, looking up resources and public databases. Like there's lots of and even now a lot of natural language processing, artificial a lot of natural language processing that basically will basically take in tax returns and wills and extract certain key information points so that you don't have to review it in full depth, right? Also looking for common errors. So the entire data extraction collection piece is where there are a lot of varying technologies to be used in conjunction to try to make it suck less. But at the end of the day, it's always gonna be a heavy lifting exercise because people just do not have this magic digital wallet of information where they can push a button and give you all the information in their lives. It doesn't exist, right? Now, at least not yet. So it's always gonna be a pain, but it can be made smoother, faster, and a little bit more accurate through technology. Then we get into the actual data. Before we get to the model, it's the understanding of it all. 

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The reality is that's a human exercise and no technology is gonna make that better. It can serve up, you know, certain pieces of information to me faster, make sure I'm looking at what's most relevant or look at or give me like next, you know, basically an alert as to what's wrong. Great, it can do that. But at the end of the day, I need to take that all in. I need to digest it. I need to understand it. Sorry. Sorry, my son just got home. We gotta give him a quick hug. Apologize. Okay. Sorry. So, hopefully we're adding. 

So I need to digest that all and then no machine is going to basically matrix plug that into me. Like it was teaching me Kung Fu. Okay. It's not going to happen. Then we get to the actual model building and, and whatnot. So, Hey, there's plenty of financial planning software is out there. You can put all this information in and then you work to optimize, or they are now tools that basically will help optimize it for you. So that sort of, that sort of piece very much is a vital component because I'll tell you anytime someone tells me they're doing all their financial planning in a spreadsheet, I'm like, it's wrong because there's no, there's too many things to take into consideration. You know, projecting out every account, calculating every year's tax returns, understand the free cash flows, you know, it's just, there's so many variables to think you can do this yourself in a spreadsheet is Folly. So then you got that. And then you have the implementation stage. Well, I mean, I think the communication stage, I miss where I basically relay that to consumers. So that's pretty straightforward. You can digest that, you know, those systems can digest that into something presentable that's easily digested, but then the implementation stage, the implementation stage becomes a human behavior aspect. So there's technologies out there now that will basically create, you know, that checklist of things that need to be done and action items out of the plan, but also other ones that will help facilitate nagging the client, that continually nudge them to say, hey, I need this thing to be done, I need you to send me this thing, you know, just stay in front of them in a routine way, and trigger different workflows whereby, hey, if it goes beyond two reminders, I'm going to pick up a phone because clearly they're ignoring that, I need to get, this is really important to get done. So there's ways to streamline every aspect other than the human consumption and the human interaction standpoint.

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Day:

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Okay, so thinking about that process again, you sort of talked about current software. Oh, was there any places that software doesn't help or gets in the way, sorry.

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Jason:

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It is, software gets in the way. I mean, it helps to a limited extent in the understanding aspect where I'm taking it all in. It can get in the way at every stage. It absolutely can. Because the reality is, and this is where I actually did present it on this a couple of times, is that unfortunately in our industry, a lot of the technology has been solely about making my life easier from a heavy lifting standpoint. It hasn't been necessarily about effective communication or effective collaboration with clients.

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So a lot of the times it could be, a lot of the times the technology just pushes a burden onto a client. That's not a good thing. If it's not collaborative, if it's not allowing me to have an actionable conversation where a client can detour and ask a question about something and I can pull it up in a moment. If I can't show them in an entertaining and educational way what it is they're doing, then it's getting in the way. And all too often, I see other advisors, I've seen the other advisors' presentations, I say to myself, were you entertained by this in any way, shape or form? Sure it was informative, but do you think you talked over people? Do you think you basically hit them over the head with like,

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I've even seen advisors talk about how they use the technology. You know, this technology is the best and this is why I use it. This technology is the best and this is why I use it. They don't care. Like, you know, someone comes to renovate my house. I don't want it. I don't want them to show, open up their toolbox and show me the quality of the hammer they're working with. Right. I care about the end product, the end experience. So it can absolutely get in the way the entire time. What needs to happen in the industry is we need to think about how we can use the tools that we have to enhance the experience and understanding and the engagement with the client and build deeper relationships and to also use that as a way to help them actually achieve what they want.

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Day:

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Okay, so with that in mind, what superpowers can you imagine would help with these core processes? What are some things you'd like to see solved if you had a magic wand?

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Jason:

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Oh, magic wand. Okay. So first, first and foremost, this is a bigger data problem. And funny enough, I have a buddy working on a company in this space. The idea of a personal data wallet, where literally every piece of personal data that would be a value is stored in a secure, secure way so that someone basically so that I basically if I need information, they want to hire me as an advisor, I can literally say, Okay, I need, here's a like it's just like when I permission a third-party app to access like my gmail or something like that It's here's the things I'm gonna be asking for please hit click here for consent and then boom that back fills my information That would be amazing, but I'm not holding my breath So the data gathering is the single biggest pain in the butt aspect that is absolutely an issue I think also the ability for better communications of data and integration such that I can not have to ask them if they did something but I can see it, right? So for example, hey, you're supposed to pay down your mortgage by, you know, there's a lump sum payment due this month, I sent you the money from your investment account, make sure it gets done before the end of the month, or I can action that on my end and you just have to hit a permissioning to allow it to happen. You know, minimizing the friction from recommendation to implementation is another technology can go a long way to solving, right? But as for everything else, I mean, the tools I have in the middle for digesting this stuff are all getting better, right? Are absolutely all getting better. Now, of course, the big problem in the industry has been and always will be the siloing of data amongst different vendors and how everything doesn't quite beautifully integrate the way it should be at the highest possible level. That's a problem that won't be solved anytime soon, I don't think, but the reality is, is the ability to be able to more liberally move data between systems when relevantly necessary. And that sounds very, like a simple request, but not a simple request anyway in technology.

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Day:

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And it's hard for vendors to play nice.

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Jason:

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It is, but even then, right, it becomes a, what is the minimum viable or minimum required product of this integration, as opposed to building a truly deep, synergized integration? Because where's the incentive, right? And it's, you're starting to see that, you see that with individual firms that have gained a certain amount of scale, where they're like, you know what? We're gonna focus on building a really tight integrated solution. We're gonna pick our best-in-class CRM plus financial planning software plus whatever, make them tie together as much as humanly possible, but they're putting in those labor hours and business model that's not universally adaptable to everywhere else and basically really kind of bring it up together. But those are again, those vary all over the place.

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Day:

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Okay, towards the end of the episode, we do like a deep question, right? We go deep here. I want you to think about like the Hollywood ending for financial planning and technology. We've made it to software heaven. And I want to hear about your vision for advisor experience, client experience for financial planning. What disappears? What vanishes?

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And what are the advisor and client interacting with? So just try and paint a picture of this, yeah.

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Jason:

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think the long-term, I'll tell you what I think the long-term destination for the industry is. I think the most meaningful possible long-term destination. It is a combination of therapist slash counselor slash coach, and the technical aspects, right? It's having a deep knowledge of finance, of the reality is, is that the technology will tell us what to do through optimization in most cases, right? So, you know, click a button, it's gonna basically tell us how to optimize around all of this. The reality is that just like we all know the solution to staying healthy is working out, you know, there's a reason why we have trainers and coaches because that is a hurdle that people need to get over for whatever issues they have. Also, there's a level of, yeah, the machine told me to do that, but I don't understand why.

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So the reality is that all of the kind of piece in the middle of the of the solutioning will eventually be completely automated and it's going to come down to the person who has the deep understanding of why the machine is telling us to do this and then bridging the gap to the human being is basically that's gonna be the rule. So I think, and you're seeing this emerge, right? There's a bigger move towards behavioral finance concepts in the US. There's a bigger, there's an infant, there's a small movement towards financial therapy. There's financial therapists in the US that basically do this. We're bringing psychology into this because the big hurdles in people achieving what they want are often not, it's not the money that they're saving, it's the, or what they're doing with their money, it is the psychological aspects of what's making them do that, right? So the future advisor is part therapist, part technician.

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Right? What fades away is all the heavy lifting stuff I need to solution to open accounts, to do all that. Those are button clicks in the new utopia of a transfer of data, just authorizations, result authorization, result authorization. The how do I get how do I when I first meet with you, diagnose the things that are going to get in the way of us achieving your greatness.

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How do I then basically take what comes out of this optimization engine and get you as close to that reality by getting through these things and help you cope with them and then basically doing what I can to help you implement and get through them on an ongoing basis? So how do I get you the effective thing based on your persona and then how do I make sure it gets implemented based on your persona? And I think that is the long-term future. So what fades away? What fades away is the collection stuff, hopefully. What fades away is the optimization stuff, hopefully. What becomes, what's left is engagement. It's how we collaborate with clients. It's how we pass on information to clients. It's how frequently we basically are in front of them, either digitally or personally. That is what changes.

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Day:

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Amazing and then from a user point of view, what are the advisor and client users kind of experiencing in this? financial planning relationship

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Jason:

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What they're experiencing, what the client is experiencing, and I'll start with that standpoint because that's what matters, is having that person in their lives that helps them triage, that helps them set up a course, but also triage all the things that happened and adapt to it. And basically helps take the financial, one of the things I say I do now all the time when it comes to people, it comes to people's like retirement, is taking the financial part of that decision off the table. If I can prove that's taken care of, then it becomes a decision around, around purpose, around what you want the rest of your life to look like, around how you're going to stay engaged, right? I want to take that off, I want to take that financial, I'm like, I don't know if I'm going to be better or worse off, or I'm not going to be really worse off if I do this. Take that off the table. If I can prove that what you're doing is sustainable. That's what matters, right? It's about how do I help you self-actualize everything else? So I think the experience is having that person who can translate your desires into the actual actions and then make sure you do that. That's it. And the way that happens is an omnipresent methodology. I'm either meeting them in person, I am basically, they've got their online portal to basically do it, to look at and do whatever they wanna do. That we can virtually meet with that same online portal whereby I am being able to pull up whatever system or tool  that is designed for clients, not for advisors, designed to communicate in their terms and their understanding and their layperson aspects that has progressive disclosure. So that the grandmother can look at the very simple chart and understand it, but the technician can drill and drill and drill and drill to their heart's content and get the level of minutiae that they wanna get, right? It's building that multi-layered system to start with the simple, to go to the complex and being able to deliver that on my phone, on a website, in person, whatever it is, it's being able to have that unified experience.

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Day:

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Awesome. Well, like you, I really hope that the business stakeholders and the engineers drive towards this future with clarity, focus and immediacy. Thank you for taking a very, very hard interview. I think we got an “A” but not an “I” out of you. So I think you passed the test. I think you Thanks for coming on the show, Jason. It was a lot of fun.

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Jason:

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My pleasure.

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Takeaways

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It was admittedly a tall order asking Jason Pereira to talk about the future of financial planning (really, the future of anything) without mentioning AI, but he was up to the task.

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In our conversation, Jason emphasizes that the core of financial planning is not just about managing money or selling products. It's about understanding every aspect of a client's life, from their assets and liabilities to their life goals, and helping them achieve those goals. Financial planners should be more like life coaches, he argues, guiding clients towards the best version of their lives. They should have a deep understanding across multiple financial fields but also know when to bring in specialized experts.

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And while technology can assist in many areas, such as data gathering, modeling, and implementation, it cannot replace the human touch required in understanding and communicating with clients. Jason mentions that many software solutions focus on making the planner's life easier but may not necessarily enhance the client's experience. He stresses the importance of technology that facilitates collaboration and effective communication with clients.

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In the ideal future, Jason envisions financial planning as a blend of therapy, counseling, and coaching, combined with the technical aspects of finance. While technology will be able to provide optimized solutions, the role of the financial planner will be to bridge the gap between what the technology suggests and the human aspect of understanding and implementing that advice. The biggest hurdles in financial planning are often psychological, and the future of the industry lies in addressing these behavioral and emotional challenges.

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